Ämne: Which brand of Bergvärmepump and what is the usual cost?

[S_M]

Hello guys,

I need some with some questions below:
1. What is the most reliable brand of pumps in the market? (i was looking at IVT, NIBE, BOSCH or DAIKIN)
 -- which model also with below needs
2. How should i understand the wattage that is needed - 6kw, 8kw or 12kw etc.?
3. What to think about when calculating heating needs?

Some information to with above questions:
My house is built in 1947 size- 86+ 86kvm - 2 glass windows (in future might get 3 glass) - self ventilated - 2-3 showers no bath. around 7 to 8 (old school)elements. 2-4 people living at a time. has possibility of drilling. 
currently heating method using oilpanna.

Requirement:
I would like to have the operational cost to be low as possible and energy class A+++ (or closer) And very low noise.

Thanks in advance!

[944_Driver]

Getting a good installation is probably the most important factor in order to get a reliable setup, all big brands have decent machines.

Where is your house placed? North or south in Sweden?

// Magnus

[DonPablo]

If i were going to invest in bergvärme today, i would look at Mitsubishi, they have released, or are soon releasing a bergvärmepump. 1.5- 11 kw if im not wrong.

[Carl N]

Do you have any number on the oil consumption?
My guess is that the house needs about 10-12 kW effect when it's really cold, but it is easier to estimate if there is any information about current energy demand.

[S_M]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all of your response!

@Carl_N -So historically energy spending is unknown, I have bought the house very recently but it should be in that ballpark - however I have guessed the oil consumption and it is around 3000L (1000 Liters costs around 12500sek) per year.

@DonPablo - I actually thought as well as Mitsubishi is make a lot of the compressor- ivt and other companies use but the issue is I haven’t been able to find anyone in my area that can install that - it is only Nibe or IVT.

@Magnus - the house is in Ekerö and I agree with your comment- I am trying to read which vvs has the highest rating.

Thanks guys!

[Carl N]

Hi!
If oil consumption is 3000 l, then I guess that the house needs about 10 kW maximum.
If you buy an on/off heatpump (like Nibe 1245 or IVT Greenline) then I recommend a size of 8 kW and at least 170 m well.
Usual cost for this is about 150-170 KSEK.

If you buy an inverter (the kompressor can variate the effect) then is a Nibe 1255-12 or IVT GEO 512 the size for you and maybe a little bit deeper well (180-190 m), this is more expensive but the heatpump covers all heat without immersion heater.
Usual cost is about 180-200 KSEK.

And of course same size for any other manufacturer of heatpumps, good luck.

[Daniel Sjöblom]

1. If you want a really reliable heat pump i would suggest an IVT Greenline or a Bosch Compress 5000. From my experience as a service guy they are pretty much rock solid.
2. It really depends on your goals and the future prices on electricity. I would guess you would end up around 9 kw with todays standard, but if electricity gets even more expensive you would break even with a larger pump as well. The greater electricity price, the bigger part of the total heating bill is desirable.
3. Interest rates, electricity prices, future expansions and considering if putting money into making a heating system demanding high temperatures is worth rebuilding/adding to so the mean temperature going out from the heat pump can be lowered.

[Daikin_]

If you are consuming 3000 liters of oil I would say your capacity needed is around 10 kW at -20 C.
As the winters are far from stable and lately quite mild, I would not consider anything else than an Inverter unit.

On-off units will save you less than the inverters due to compressor cycling.

The choices you have are:
Nibe: 1,5 - 7,5 or 3 - 12 kW
Ivt: 2 - 8 or 3 - 12 kW
Thermia: 1,5 - 7,5 or 3 - 12 kW
Mitsubishi electric: 1,5 - 11 kW
Daikin: 0,85 - 10 kW

Rebember that all the capacities are calculated according to standard 0 C brine temperatures.
In reality no unit will ever reach its declared minimum capacity since in early spring when the house still needs heating, the brine temperature is closer to 6-7 degrees in Stockholm.

When the heat load of the house is lower than the capacity of the house, the units will go in an on-off operation. In case of an inverter unit, this leads to a less stable temperature and in the case of an on-off compressor this leads to a less stable temperature and wear on the compressor.

The outside temperature when you stop heating your house is around + 15 C, and with a heating demand of 10 kW at - 20 C, your capacity need is approx (10000/35) 285 W/C.

Given this formula, your systems will go in an stable (inverter) operation from :
3 kW minimum capacity: 4,5 C (unit operates with continious operatin between -20 up to + 4,5 C, and between 4,5 C and + 15 C it is operating on-off)

2 kW minimum capacity: +8C
1,5 kW: +10 C
0,85 kW: +12 C.

I would look into Daikin or Mitsubishi as the choice for your house.
Both would heat up your house with stable indoors temperature and minimum on-off operation.
Compare the efficiencies (SCOP) also  as that was an important point for you.

Good luck with your choice.

Btw: I think that the supplier of compressors to Nibe and Thermia is Mitsubishi Heavy not Mitsubishi Electric but I could be mistaken.

Kind regards
Daikin   

[S_M]

Hey - Thank you guys for taking the time to reply!

If i have understood your comments right i should go for:
1. Inverter pump - this will allow stady flow of heating and not lead to wear to the pump.
2. should go from 8kw till 12 KW - depending on the type of machine

Models - depending on the solution type and depth of the well:
IVT Greenline HE or GEO 512
Nibe 1245 or 55
Bosch Compress 5000
Daikin - don't know which model though

One more thing reminded by my colleague is that the water tank - i should at least go for 300 liters - i think if i go with the 12KW that shouldn't be a problem then - or i hope - any comment to this?

I found this artical - plz look at the picture attached - the artical is bit old but still valid i guess. link: https://www.bergvarme-pris.se/blogg/2015/09/baest-i-test-jaemfoerelse-av-10-bergvaermepumpar. - what do you guys think?
The best SCOP is of Nibe 1255 but at 16kw.


This is whole new area for me - so much to learn - have anyone of you try to connect solar panel as a el sources?

[Daniel Sjöblom]

Hey - Thank you guys for taking the time to reply!

If i have understood your comments right i should go for:
1. Inverter pump - this will allow stady flow of heating and not lead to wear to the pump.
2. should go from 8kw till 12 KW - depending on the type of machine

Models - depending on the solution type and depth of the well:
IVT Greenline HE or GEO 512
Nibe 1245 or 55
Bosch Compress 5000
Daikin - don't know which model though

One more thing reminded by my colleague is that the water tank - i should at least go for 300 liters - i think if i go with the 12KW that shouldn't be a problem then - or i hope - any comment to this?

I found this artical - plz look at the picture attached - the artical is bit old but still valid i guess. link: https://www.bergvarme-pris.se/blogg/2015/09/baest-i-test-jaemfoerelse-av-10-bergvaermepumpar. - what do you guys think?
The best SCOP is of Nibe 1255 but at 16kw.


This is whole new area for me - so much to learn - have anyone of you try to connect solar panel as a el sources?

1.

The Inverter / On-Off debate is still raging hard. According to KTH and a study they made there are not any difference in performance on an inverter heat pump from a traditional one. Why was not something the study dived into, but what one gets in lower consumption from not having to start and stop, is probably lost from electric motors having less efficiency when running with an inverter infront of it, especially in lower frequencies. That said, i have lots and lots of logs from different heat pumps with inverters that stops, rest for a while and then restarts. Right now i suspect the software is not as good at predicting energy needs as it should be, and more or less just ramp up, meet demand and stops, and then redo that circle again and again.

IVT Greenline HE and Bosch 5000 is the choice if you want solid and proven stability and durability. The verdict for inverter pumps is still out there but i suspect they will fare pretty well.

2.

Preferably you would take the of an installator for sizing of both the bore hole and the pump. If not you can read the mfgs own documentation that specifies recommended depths. The size of the pump itself is mostly a calculation between capital and the amount of reduce on the energy bill.

[Carl N]

Hot water supply tank is normally included in the heat pump.
You can ask for a heat pump without hot water tank and buy a separate tank like Nibe 1155 + VPB or Thermia Inverter Duo + MBH.
But for normal use the build in hot water tank is enough for most of us.
If you have a big jacuzzi or something like that you might need 300 l tank, otherwise the built in tank will probably be just fine.

[S_M]

Okay, then i stick to the internal tank for now - thanks @Carl N - appreciate your !

@Daniel Sjöblom, I don't know why it is complicated but i guess the same principle applies as to car starting and stopping unnecessarily costs more gas and wear on engine.

Now at least i have some  clue while talking to installer instead looking like dumb witted 

IVT is giving 10 warranty on their pumps - man that is tempting.

Thanks Guys for your !

[Daikin_]

IVT is giving 10 warranty on their pumps - man that is tempting.

Yepp, if you do services after 3 and 6 years. Check the cost of that first. (if I remember correct, might have changed since)
/D

[Boilerplate4U]

Hi! If oil consumption is 3000 l, then I guess that the house needs about 10 kW maximum.
If you buy an on/off heatpump (like Nibe 1245 or IVT Greenline) then I recommend a size of 8 kW and at least 170 m well. Usual cost for this is about 150-170 KSEK.

If you buy an inverter (the kompressor can variate the effect) then is a Nibe 1255-12 or IVT GEO 512 the size for you and maybe a little bit deeper well (180-190 m), this is more expensive but the heatpump covers all heat without immersion heater. Usual cost is about 180-200 KSEK.

Sounds like a very good estimate and is almost spot on when it comes to sizing and cost of installation for our 200 m² house we made for about 13 years ago:

Wellbore: 180 meter using 360 meter collector
Main contractor: Kyl & Värmepumpservice i Stor-stockholm
Plumbing installer: Absolutely fabulous :-) Can't remember the name of the firm though
Heatpump: 10Kw (IVT Greenline HT E11)
Accumulator tank: 300 litre

Using only one outdoor temp sensor the whole thing has been working like a charm. No specific maintenance besides clearing the filters once a year. The investment paid off within about 4-5 years.

What ever model you pick you will love getting rid of the oil in the transition to modern heating technology. Just do it, you wont regret it!

To start with I'd fokus on finding a reliable contractor that has a plumbing installer with a good track record. The rest is more a matter of bells and whistles as well as the color of the coating of course :-)

[S_M]

Hello guys - 

Now I have gotten couple of offers from different vendors:
—2 separate guys
1. Ivt Geo 512-12kw, 180m @ 198000/-
2. Nibe F1255-12kw, 180m @ 199900/-
—below same guy
3. Ivt Geo 508c-8kw, 160m @ 170500/-
4. Ivt C11-10kw, 190m @ 172500/-
-rut not included on any of the estimates
-includes removing of the oilpan/pump - Though it costs around 3-5tkr.
Note:
My house is 170qm and 3000liters of oil consumption.
The guy on 3 and 4 points thinks I don’t need pump more then 8kw..- other one thinks I should have 10kw and the 3rd one thinks 12kw..
What do you guys think of the estimates?

Thanks!